Episode 146: Breaking Taboos: The Power of Vulnerability with Susan Lieu
In this episode, Susan Lieu shares her journey as a Vietnamese American storyteller focused on intergenerational healing. She discusses her memoir, 'The Manicurist's Daughter,' which explores her mother's tragic death and the impact of trauma on family dynamics.
The conversation delves into the complexities of cultural identity, the role of art in healing, and the challenges of navigating family expectations. Susan emphasizes the importance of vulnerability, emotional intimacy, and the need to let in joy while addressing the weight of societal and familial pressures. Through her experiences, she inspires listeners to embrace their stories and seek healing.
Sound Bites
"I feel like I have to call my mom."
"I need to understand why we were like this."
"I want emotional intimacy."
"I don't want to lose you."
"How do we let it in?"
"Art can be a portal for us to have the turn."
"Fuck saving face about the word should."
"Don't shit on yourself anymore, girl."
Takeaways
Susan Lieu is a storyteller focused on intergenerational healing.
Her memoir, 'The Manicurist's Daughter,' explores her mother's death.
Art serves as a portal for healing and connection.
Navigating family expectations can be challenging for creatives.
Vulnerability is key to emotional intimacy and connection.
The word 'should' can be limiting and harmful.
Cultural identity plays a significant role in personal narratives.
Healing can impact generations forward and backward.
It's important to let in joy and embrace vulnerability.
Connection through shared experiences can lead to healing.
Episode Highlights
00:00 Introduction to Susan Lieu and Her Journey
03:08 Exploring Intergenerational Healing
05:50 The Impact of Trauma and Family Dynamics
08:51 Navigating Family Expectations and Vulnerability
12:04 The Role of Art in Healing
14:53 Building Confidence as a Storyteller
17:58 The Weight of Expectations and Approval
20:59 Letting in Joy and Embracing Vulnerability
24:00 The Complexity of Cultural Identity
27:08 The Power of Connection and Shared Experiences
30:08 Final Thoughts on Healing and Authenticity
Transcript:
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast, where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today. Susan has to be one of my favorite people who I've met this last year. She is a Vietnamese American author, playwright and performer. She's also one of our...
clients for our marketing and branding agency. In fact, she is our first official Nice Tiger, which is the name that we're rebranding Wild Hearted Words into, client. So we've been busy in Q4 of 2024 building all of these personal brands that we didn't really have a time to finish our own rebrand, but she has loved her experience working with us and has sung our praises on social, which I'm very grateful for.
But mostly it was because we were so jazzed by her personality and loved her so much that we wanted to go above and beyond like we do with every client. But we just felt such a connection to bring her voice to life because the previous iteration of her site truly did not at all embody who she is, this dynamic human being. So her solo show, 140 pounds, How Beauty Killed My Mother, evolved into her memoir, The Manicurious Daughter.
which has been featured in the New York Times and NPR. was nominated as a Goodreads top book. It recently got a Smithsonian award. She's an alumni of Harvard and Yale and the co-founder of Sokola Chocolatier. She is filled with vulnerability, authenticity, intelligence, and wit. And everybody who's engaged with her, seen her shows, just interacted with her. She was doing standup before.
Everything is this voluminous voice that is so intriguing. And her book, well, you know what? I'm just gonna let you hear her own voice in this interview because I got so vulnerable in ways that I don't think I've ever done in the 100 and what now, 40 something episodes of the show. So I am excited for you to hear this interview.
Judy (02:19.502)
And without further ado, I'm gonna turn it over to Susan. Okay, so we have Susan Lieu today and I love that you went Liu-Ew. You have been our favorite client of our business because you're so dynamic and being able to bring out that dynamism online in full living color has been so wonderful to see.
It's one of the things that I hope that all listeners also get the experience of is being able to fully express themselves and be in their story of their lives. And so you are a multi-hyphenate storyteller. know, like I know that there's kind of sometimes with the stories that you tell, there's some shock and awe in that because you're asking people to wake up and reflect. And so I would love for you just to, in your own words, how would you describe you and your work?
I'm a storyteller on intergenerational healing. And I asked the question, is healing possible in our families when there is shame and silence? What must I do on an individual level internally to find the closure, find the healing, and for me to be alive and live like I'm mortal instead of sleepwalking, being the walking dead, adhering to everyone else for everyone else's comfort? Because what am I left with?
What is that default life for me and is that enough for me? And if not, what do need to do differently? And so I asked these questions in theater in my most recent memoir, The Manicurist's Daughter, in writing. I am shifting to film and TV and I've done it in stand-up comedy. And that is who I am because I think when I can do that for me, I'm also creating a space to do it for you.
Tell us about this book because your book has been nominated for a lot of different things recently. Goodreads, Smithsonian, like all these things. You've been featured in a lot of national publications as well. And so, yeah, so tell me about this book.
Susan (04:13.89)
Yeah, the manicure stutter is my memoir and it's the unfortunate story of how my mother died from a botched tummy tuck when I was 11 years old. She was 38. She went in for that tummy tuck and lost oxygen to her brain for 14 minutes before the doctor made the 911 call, was in a coma for five days and then flatlined. And for the next two decades, my family had never spoken of her or her death ever again. And so I realized before I could become a mom,
I needed to know my mom. But if no one would talk, how can I get answers? This story chronicles my quest to track down the plastic surgeon's family, seek help through spirit channelers, read thousands of pages of depositions, and go to Vietnam several times to kind of get these jigsaw puzzle pieces together to finally complete her portrait of who she was so I could become a mom.
And 140 pounds, that was your one woman show that you were performing while pregnant. And so, you know, the whole idea of this podcast is to break through taboo topics, which is what your book is about as well, about shame and stigma, but also just to live a life out loud that's different than what we were told is acceptable. And I know that, you know, as someone who used to have an eating disorder, a lot of trying to
Yeah
Judy (05:37.08)
be thinner and smaller is to almost disappear. Like sometimes the pain is so great or the chaos is so great and it's so difficult to navigate and control. So your one woman show, can you tell us about that and what that was about?
So as I'm trying to piece together who my mom is, I live process it on stage in a one woman show and I keep iterating, I keep iterating. And the fifth show, 140 pounds how beauty killed my mother, is this narrative arc of talking about our family tragedy and the PTSD, the mental health, the unresolved grief, what happens to a family when they can't heal? I do it in 15 characters in 65 minutes.
It's humorous, it's heartbreaking. And I take you on this journey. Like it's cathartic and it's, I call it therapeutic theater for us to see the duality of joy and tragedy. And I did it really for me. And I didn't realize that when I looked up, when the stage went to black and I look up and I see the audience, that I was doing it for us. Right? And like,
It was an interplay of everyone's emotions too. And at the end of every show, people would line up and it felt like a cross between like a wedding and a funeral where people would confess to me about their own traumas. People would say, hey, God, I felt so seen tonight or I feel like I have to call my mom. And I'm like, yeah, you know. And so, yeah, it was it was something I just had to do. And it sucks because it was airing my family's dirty laundry that we ourselves
to this day, now three decades later, have not been able to talk about. But I had to do it because it was like almost like it was forcing function at a certain point, right? Like I felt like I could not move forward in my life unless I addressed the past. And I was able to do that by telling the story and things becoming more clear for me and for me to understand how I am my mother's daughter.
Judy (07:40.278)
So people ask me because, you know, my book is all about like how to disappoint your parents in 10 shameless steps, which my family has not, my siblings specifically, I'm the eldest of four, like did not support the Kickstarter, you know, like, I sent them the information and stuff and I had a family friend say like, well, I don't think that you're going to get like that kind of support. And people have asked me before, like, is your family still alive? Like if you're going to write all these things and like similar to you, I feel compelled to do it it's not throwing anybody under the bus. It's like, I need to understand.
why we were like this and I know I'm not alone in that. And so I'm curious as to how you navigated that as a creative with that, with the familial expectations and all of that.
Mm hmm. Great question. So the show 140 pounds is the fifth iteration. so after I did the first iteration, I had recorded it, came home for Christmas for our five day sleepover called Extreme Indulgence where we eat and drink and every sibling and their partner tries to make the best meal. my gosh. And then whoever the winner is, you get it inscribed on the trophy and you hold the trophy for the year. Like it's very serious. Like, yeah, like food is love and it's also like it is competition. So
I'm like, hey guys, because I'm kind of like the cruise director for the family. was like, hey guys, does anyone want to watch a screening of my show of this thing that I just did? And one brother did. He came down to watch it and the other brother and sister were like, no. And then after the brother watched it, he was like, well, that was like an emotional roller coaster. And I was like, uh-huh. And, and then, and he walked upstairs to watch football. You know, like it was just like, and then that was it.
And it wasn't until I went back to San Francisco to record, to relive my mom's last day where I went back to my childhood home, drove to her plastic surgery clinic, like tried to recreate the last day so I could feel it and see it, is when a psychic called me, Psychic Cindy. And she's my aunt's nail salon customer of 20 years. And I couldn't get a meeting with her. She was very booked out. And she said, I had a cancellation. Do you want to come? And this is happening right when I had gone to the plastic surgery clinic, lit some incense.
Susan (09:48.492)
set off the fire alarm. I know the fire engine was coming. I was raced out of there, trying not to get in trouble. And then I get a call from Cindy and I was like, this is so weird right now. So I go see her. I verify that my mom is on the other side by asking very specific questions. And then I'm talking to her, I'm like, mom, should I stop? Like, do you want me to do? And she was like, this is not about you. This is about us and the work that we're doing, because we're healers. So let's get to work.
Mm. I got that recording. I shared it with my sister. She shared it with everyone else. And she was like, this isn't about you. I'm like, it's not, it's not. And she goes, well, maybe I'll come to your next show. So she came to the third iteration, which was about body image. You walk into a theater and on the projection screen is just like my belly fat where I'm squeezing it like a giant projection screen. And I talk about body image and my struggles with that. And my mom struggles with that.
And then my sister sees the lineup that happens after the every show where it's like, this is about people connecting to each other's hearts and seeking healing and wondering if it's possible. And she became the bridge builder to the rest of my family and her and my brother came to the 140 pounds world premiere. did a post-show talk back where they came on stage and we had our first public conversation about not.
about my mom and their emotional vulnerability around that, but more like what they think about me talking about our mom, right? But that was a step. It was a step. And then I've seen them transition over time to folding in our mom more into our lives, like setting up an altar where she's watching over us. She was just watching over us at Thanksgiving. And it was me and my three siblings and she was just right there. And it felt so good that she was watching down on us. Now with my dad and my other brother, we pretend I don't do it.
And it's a very strange thing when something that's so big in my life that is now my career and my life purpose that I just pretend I don't do it. Because they set their indirect boundary about it. I think for a long time wanted a very explicit clear boundary with emotional vulnerability. When you talk about that, really triggers me and I would feel safer if you didn't. It's more just like anytime I mention anything, there's people hanging up or like.
Susan (12:04.16)
explosions or like flare ups, you know, and that's what I call an indirect boundary where I was like, I shouldn't do that around them anymore. So it's strange, but it's also still very much family, right? Where it's like, everyone is having a very different reaction to the same core rupture that we've had. I kind of live in this space of neutrality with a number of family members where I'm like, look, I don't know when I'm gonna die. I don't know when you're gonna die. It does not need to be like,
If you don't see me the way I wanna be seen, you're out of my life. Because that's actually what I wanted for a long time, which was like, I want emotional intimacy. I don't think we need to be on E together to hug. I just want us to be connected. And I don't think everyone has that capacity. And it might not actually be very personal, but it's taking me to become a mom to realize that.
I love what you're saying because I think that that is where wisdom comes into play, is that people aren't going to subscribe to the same storyline and they're not going to, they are going to have different boundaries and whether or not they can articulate it is so different. mean, just even recently over Thanksgiving, I was having a hard conversation with my partner and I was like, I want us to be able to have uncomfortable conversations. He's like, we are literally doing that right now. And so I'm like,
I see, like I had told myself this idea of what I thought and was even missing the point as I was living it. But then also just the emotional capacity that you're talking about. Sometimes people either do or don't have it or it's an evolution and then we are going to miss the mark a lot of the times with each other. And can we at least have some grace and compassion? Because if we're expecting them to have that of us, we need to have that for them.
Right, I think the question is, are you achieving your desired impact? Because for me, I'd be like, if I'm crying and vulnerable and crying with you, then I see a pooling away. Last night, I was saying bye to someone new, and they were like, your eye contact is so intense right now, it makes me uncomfortable. It feels like you're staring into my soul right now. And then I saw, I was like, well, they didn't say stop, so I just kept looking.
Susan (14:24.322)
You know, because I think that we, like, why aren't we staring into each other's souls more? Like, what's the point? But the thing is, is that was, that was like the edge that was their edge. That's their edge and I'm about to lose them. So then I have to like, kind of look away. You know what I mean? Like just so I can still hold them. And so I call this dancing with strangers, right? Like for me, I'm actually cool. You want to grind? We grind. You want to cha-cha? We cha-cha. But the thing is,
Not everyone, everyone else is maybe not as flexible with their dancing style. And so how do I still get, if I still want to enjoy the dance and complete the dance with them, I need to flex and adapt, right? Cause like, I know I have that capacity. They might not. And so I think now at 39, I'm trying to just see like, I don't want to lose you. I don't want to lose you. So I'm going to meet you where you're at instead of expecting you to meet me where I'm at right now.
Hmm. That's a great lesson. Yeah. Yeah. And like the more trust that you have, I mean, I think that's why your work is powerful as well is because if you can create that sense of trust with other people in that shared space, then they are willing to be more open and vulnerable. I would imagine that that's like what's happening when people are lining up to be able to talk to you and to feel really seen and heard. Like we've all, you know, seen like how valuable and validating that is. I'm curious for you.
How did you get to that level of confidence to put yourself out there? I mean, as a creative, I think anybody who's creative struggles with like that, doing their art and whatnot. But then on top of it, we have a whole cultural lens and like, how did you keep building up the confidence to keep showing up?
It is so funny. Like people describe me as confident and I actually don't describe myself as confident. So I think that's always been a funny thing where I always kind of smirk about that. Like for me, someone else has also said, you know, Susan, what you do is you create arbitrary rules around things and then you meet them. And I'm like, hmm, that's also true. And here, here's, here's what it is. So for going back, I started in standup comedy and I got, and I think it was
Susan (16:35.554)
We're actually going pretty well. And then I got heckled. So I left the stage for three years. And then I got a lot of pressure from my dad and aunts like have kids, have kids. You're not getting any younger. And I was like, ugh, one, how do I become a mom if I don't know my mom? Number two, how can I tell my kid be what you want in life? If I did it myself, I felt like I was a coward. I knew I needed to do my shadow work around the calling I had because I feel like I'm in my orbit on stage. And so I said,
cannot become a mom until I face my own cowardice. And I said, Okay, I'm gonna give myself two years to just get the wiggles out around performance. And then I'll take out my IUD. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. And then I'll be a mom, you know, that was the story I had to create come a storyline to justify. And then from there, I started doing absurdist performance. But really, the truth was in the story about my mom, like that was where the resonances that was where the fear was.
And that's why I was like, okay, I got to feel a fear and do it anyways, right? And like go through. And so I think for me, it's like, what's at stake. It's like any storyteller, right? Like where are the stakes? Where are the stakes? And then how do we achieve those or how do we go towards the mission? So it's not like I do small actions every day and I build a muscle and I feel confident to do what I want. You know, like I think for me, it's like I've always...
had a strong manifesting energy. And the thing is, the question is, like, well, what is it I want and what's the why behind it? And for me, that why was so charged around integrity of motherhood. And that was a truth for me. But also it was charged around being exalted in my own orbit of feeling alive, feeling useful, feeling like the gifts that I was born with was actually being used because it wasn't being used as a vendor at Microsoft doing digital marketing.
You know what I mean? And at one point I was like in cybersecurity. I'm like, what am I doing here? Right? Like it was so funny because it's like, it's not a knock on that company. It's more like square peg, round hole, culture fit, you know, like, and even though I want my family to see me the way I want to be seen in a career, you can actually do that. You can, you can jigger that to put yourself in a situation to be seen the way you want to be seen and actually to be useful.
Susan (18:56.52)
And so in a way, this exploration back into performance came at a very interesting time because then eventually I got fired from my job. And it was like the universe forced me to be at that crossroads. And my tendency is, okay, cool. Like, let me just apply for the job to maximize income. Like, what's the job I'm likely to get to maximize income? That's what I do. Slash, I have a mortgage. I have business school loans. Like, mama gonna make some money. But then again, I was like, no.
There was this deep feeling and calling. up in that point, I had done three shows and I had gotten very small baby grants, like $500, you know, like a small article here and there. But I felt this like calling and my husband was like, you love to be busy. Like, why don't you just do that and do a corporate job? And I was like, I don't want to be resentful to you. So I know I need to go do this right now. So you're either with me or not. And that's okay if you're not, we don't have a kid yet. It's cool, dude. And then he was like, whoa, shock.
It's like the calling. Now I had allowed myself to listen to it and so the volume of it, the dial was going up and up and it was very obvious the more I fed it, the more I felt like I was in my joy, the more I felt like I was living like I was mortal. And then here I am, now it's six years later.
Wow, I'm so curious because as you were talking, feel like you've done a lot of interviews, people have asked you lot of questions. What's something that someone's never asked you that you wish that you could talk about or like something that's been on your heart or on your mind lately?
It's just like the question here is when is anything enough? because we can talk about the accolades, cool. And I'm glad I have them. I'm glad I love the notes I get from readers and it's making an impact on them. Yes. But what's the cost of that? You know, and like, what's ever going to make me happy? I don't think I'll ever get the approval of my father. my God. Can I tell you, Judy, so many women not of Asian descent will be like, your father must be so proud of you.
Judy (20:57.08)
Really?
You know, yeah, yeah, they always do this or they also go like, your mother would be so proud of you. And every time that happens, I was like, oh, you have no idea. Or I'm like, reread the book again, you know, because like the approval, right? Like overachiever Susan in high school and college, and I went to Harvard and Yale later. Like, it's just like, it was very clear to get that approval. And now as a 39 year old with a four year old kid, where do you get approval?
Who makes the rules in your life? At the end of the day, my subconscious is making the rules, my cultural conditioning is making the rules, I'm making the rules, and I can change those rules. And I think my big work right now is around really looking at the rules I've set for myself, engineering rules that are in my integrity, and then enjoying it. I think it's, I have a lot of trouble, and I'm not sure if this is a child of immigrants kind of thing, around enjoy the journey, savor it, because I don't.
I try to, I try to, and I tell myself rationally to do that. And yet I am not, I am still not making my own rules because I am chronically disappointed or like I'm onto the next goal and onto the next thing. And I think that's also very unhealthy, which is causing some, I think, health issues for me right now that I'm trying to get behind. But I think there's this like core thing around who created the rules? Are you happy with them? And do you want to rewrite them?
I think that's interesting because one of the things that you're talking about is I was actually bringing this up with someone in our coaching program and I was like, look, my intellectual mind understands all of this. I understand that in my life I have all of this wealth and abundance, like relationships, connections, community, all of the things, health, like whatever. How do we let it in and actually feel it so deeply and actually experience it?
Judy (22:52.268)
And I couldn't get a good answer from anyone. Like, I was like, I fully, I can see it. I am aware. And is this a child of immigrants thing or is this like a cultural thing or is it just a woman thing or just a thing thing? Like, I don't know, but like, how do we let it in more? And the, when I asked the question, I had to ask it multiple times over and over to be like, no, no, that's.
you're not giving me an answer. Like I want to know how to let it in more. And kind of what you were saying about the mortality. One of the things that I think about all the time is like, I don't want to get to the end of my life and have made all of these accomplishments and been like, shit, I should have enjoyed it more while I had it or like while I was doing it. And that to me feels like it would be a very sad state to end on was like, I should have enjoyed it more.
But if I'm actively asking the question of how do I let it in more and people don't fully have like a good answer for me, then I wonder is that like a state of our modern society? I don't know.
Yeah, there's like so much I'm like sitting there being like, yes, yes to all of that. How do we let it in? Because for me, that's coupled with guilt, right? Like my parents had it so worse than me. My dad was orphaned, fully orphaned by the time he was 12. And like the resources that my parents had access to raising kids in America versus what I have access to is so different. So why am I complaining? You know, I stand on their sacrifices so that I could.
enjoy my life. And it's like, why don't I enjoy my life, you know? so I guess it's like, and I'm like, my God, is this just like a first world problem where I have the space to worry about these things? It's still an honest experience, right? Like, it's still my experience that I'm having to have this guilt and some shame around it, right? And I don't think I have an answer of how to let it in more. But certainly my body is forcing me
Susan (24:56.354)
to stop how it's going right now. And it's forcing me to press pause and reassess and reflect and make some changes. So I'll let you know when I'm on the other side.
Yeah.
Judy (25:10.35)
I've been trying every day in the morning to, because I have a lot of doing energy and people ask me this all the time of like, how do you do all the things that you do? And I was saying like, I think actually with AI, it's coming to like a, not a manic point, but like if my natural state is to be a generator, and then now I have this tool at my disposal that makes things happen so much faster that I could create so much more, I have to figure out like times to stop, because otherwise I'll just keep going all night and all day long. And so it's a, so I've been trying to
I know if my doing energy is very strong and so I have to practice the being energy of just sitting there and sitting with any number of things. you know, yesterday when I was having this conversation, this morning my partner and I were talking about the holidays. The holidays I think are always really tricky for divorced parents. There's always like this level of kind of grief and sadness. It's like a heartbreak holiday, you know, I would say. And that we still were like five or six years out of our divorces.
and still need to manage this. And he was saying, like, I don't know if I'm ever gonna get to a place where I feel like this is normal, where I feel like these holidays are normal. And so for he and I, like the nice thing is like we're in a relationship. So we've matched our custody schedules as best as possible, which means that we can go take a trip together when we don't have our kids. And like, that's a great like gift to have. I know a lot of people who are like, that must be nice to be able to take trips, but there's a whole other side to it. And when I was talking to him about it,
I knew my heart hurt and I wanted to go on a trip because I didn't want to be in a city that I couldn't see my child in. And then he was finding out about his kid's schedule and just not as responsive as I was hoping for. But I knew in our relationship that what would happen is he would reflect upon it and then we would revisit it and we would have another conversation about it, which is exactly what happened. But I had to be okay with sitting with that being energy, which isn't...
fun when you are used to being productive and you can get out and do things and figure out the answers or figure out some sort of solution. And this wasn't a solution fix. was just like, are both having our responses to this hard thing. We will get to a point where we can have a conversation about it with each other. We need to process it in our own ways. And I think that that is what I think is hard in terms of the letting in.
Judy (27:37.08)
bits, like letting in, I don't know if it's easier to let in the hard feelings or to let in the good feelings. actually don't know. But I think that is like just a little bit of the art of starting to do it is letting.
Yeah. Yeah, what's coming up for me is just the word allow. And how do you sit with uncertainty if you can't control it? Like, always, I'm an Aries ox. And so I'm like, yeah, I'm going to brute force my way in anything. Like anything's possible because I'm going to do it. You know, and it's like, yo, like how do we create a little space and magic of like what the universe wants to intervene and do, right?
and it can actually be really silky and beautiful. But maybe I don't even allow it, because I like stomped all over the room, not you, me. I stomped all over the room and I was like, guess it's not working out anyways. know, like whatever. And they're like, I told you I'd call you back in 10 minutes. You're like, you know, like, so there's like, yeah, I feel like there's rhino Susan inside of me that's just like, we'll find that, you know? And it's just like, whoa, what is that? You know, like, is it the fear of like not
going to be cared for and remembered, you know? But yeah, no, this like, I love woo-woo stuff and the allowing and like, the tea bag always saying like, unknown blessings are on their way. And I'm like, are they? Are they though? You know? And I'm like, that's cool if you show up, but if you don't, I still have an emergency kit that will last me like 40 meals in an apocalypse. You know what I mean? Like, do you get what I'm saying? Like this tension of the allowing and the trusting. Yeah.
part is too. mean, my partner is a white man. And so he's existed in a world different than mine. And I watch him. And I was like, he fully lets in the good stuff. And he fully lets in like, and he's a very, you know, he's like a cancer. So he's like a sensitive guy. And like, and in our relationship, he's definitely felt more feels than I think I've allowed myself to feel.
Judy (29:40.29)
Yeah, and which is very interesting and I'm so grateful for it and like being able to watch him access his emotions like is really fascinating. But I think it's also knowing like, I see it is possible because I'm watching this person do it to like let in all of this and enjoy the things he enjoys and like, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so I think that sometimes also makes it harder when you can see somebody else able to do it and you're like, okay, then then what is going on?
Like what is happening in my world?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would love a Freaky Friday situation where I can just like be a white privileged man. Like I see them, like they just like don't even apologize. They just like ask for what they want at the deli counter and cut everybody. like, wow. And I'd be like, excuse me. sorry. is anybody? you know, but I mean, Judy, that's so cool, though, you that you can witness it and maybe you can model it for you and be like where it's possible where you'd be like, well, that's what it's like. OK, we even if it's not accessible right now.
Yes, and we joke about it all the time now, because he's gotten way more sensitive to cultural things because of me and how I move through the world. And so our ongoing joke is, use your white privilege and help me out here. And so he will say to me, yeah, he's like, and he's become more aware of it. So it is kind of that I get to experience different elements of it and see, that's why he would say that, or that's why it comes like.
like he experiences it in this way. And I think that whole idea of like the model minority and being white adjacent and like all of that, like in my marriage, that was what I experienced. That was complete dysfunction of like, this is a fail. And this was like not anywhere. I mean, I full on had a half and half child because some belief of my brain was like, if I do that, then I will be accepted into like the dominant majority or some whatever the belief was. And
Judy (31:36.844)
this relationship that I'm in now, now I actually get to experience like, I see, if we help each other out, he becomes more sensitive to what other people, marginalized communities may be experiencing. And I get to see more of what he experiences. And we get to play in that space a little bit more, which is interesting. But yes. So I've been way more vulnerable in this interview than I have in other interviews. Do you know that?
There's this prompt that I've been sharing with people. I think it was shared on Reddit and I saw somebody in my network on Facebook share it. He's like, you know, it comes with a trigger warning. Like you have to be okay with having something potentially assess you on a very deep and fundamental level. And I just did an interview with a woman who's getting certified in like advanced AI prompts because she's like, you don't even know how this can help with.
personal development and like human development if you are willing to do like, you know, ask these questions or whatnot. So I asked it these questions and I was like, yeah, you built a whole brand around vulnerability and authenticity and yet you don't fully show up as vulnerably and authentically as you would like to have other people believe. And I was like, no, I'm like, how do you know me? And so I think like, because you are so willing to
So.
Judy (32:59.448)
go there and be you. And it enables me to, you know, eschew the perfectionistic tendencies and be like, okay, like if I really want to help people and help myself, it involves diving deeper.
I mean, aren't we all just like a mirror to each other?
Yeah, yeah. I'm so curious out of all of your experiences with people coming up to you to tell their stories, you being a storyteller, me being a storyteller, what's the most memorable one that you've experienced? I'm sure there's like so many to choose from, but was there one that you were like, my gosh, that was wild.
There's been a couple where it's always mom, mother, daughter stuff that I really love to hear about. And one person saw it and then she brought her mom with her and they have a tough relationship and they, and they could talk about me. They couldn't talk about their relationship. And the daughter just hoped it would just open like a possibility with her mom. And eventually her mom passed away and she.
continues to express gratitude for the collective experience that we could all have together at that show, right? Because of the work. And so I think that's the beautiful thing about art, right? Is that maybe we're not ready to face certain things about our own lives, but the art can be a portal for us to have the turn to it, have an openness to it, have a possibility towards it. And I don't think in their relationship while the mom was living that she was able to have
Susan (34:30.338)
the conversation where the daughter feels seen the way she wants to be seen. But at least that moment was there, you know, and it's kind of like an inexplicable moment. It's a shared feeling that you get to have together and you knew you had it. You knew it, you had it at least once. And that's really beautiful for me. But numerous times people will be like, and then I called my mom afterwards and then I like, I had this conversation in the case that.
I didn't want to live with regret if she ever passed and we didn't get to complete that conversation. So I've gotten a lot of those notes. my God, I got to tell you this one. This mom in Santa Rosa, she listens to my book on audio book and her daughter is going through an eating disorder and a facility. She says, reading about my mother, my mother, inspires her to keep going, to wake up in the morning, keep going, be strong like my mother. She got a tattoo after listening to my book. I'm like, what's a tattoo?
And she's listening to it now the fourth time. Wow. And she says she picks up something new every time and encourages her to be strong for her daughter when she just feels like it's all too much. She's a single mom and she's not Asian. She's white, you know? And I'm like, yes, like, right? Like this is this is not about the my memoirs at the Vietnamese experience. And like, this is what it's like to be the daughter of manicurists. No, it's about how do we love our family and still love.
ourselves. How do we have space for both without denying who we are? And so I love to see that art bringing magic to people. And I love that I don't have to show up on stage night after night to do it. It can happen in my sleep. It can happen on a, they can stream it. You know, like it's so beautiful, like to share my art in a different genre where someone can, can open that up and find themselves and hopefully heal themselves.
I love when you said like turn, you know, turn towards it. Like just that just slight shift. you know, I so good. Okay, so as we close the interview, I always ask everybody if you could say fuck saving face about something, what would you say fuck saving face about?
Susan (36:38.904)
F*ck saving face about the word should. Don't shit on yourself anymore, girl. It's not working, you know, but there's, I have been led by the word should for a long time. You know, I should, I should do this for my dad. You know, I should, I should have this career. I should, you know, and it's like, ew, and then what? You know, like, and then this is your reality and how you feeling about it now, you know? So.
What is the word should? The word should is baked around convention and norms that hopefully regulate a society, but it's also around order, you know, and humans are messy and us learning about who we are is not a linear experience. And I really think life is this journey of getting closer and closer to understanding who we are, what we want, and then actualizing that, right? And that usually if we follow the word should,
We can deviate and justify that deviation from our actual path. So fuck saving face about the word should.
should is such a dirty word. Okay, so people want to follow up with you. Where can they follow up with you?
Yeah, on my Instagram at Susan Lieu, L-I-E-U, my website, SusanLieu.me that Judy and her team like glamified me with when I just, really love everything that you've done on that. I show it to people and I'm like, guys, don't I look like a real person? And they're like, you are a real person. I was like, I know, but like legit, don't I look legit? And working with your team was so easy, unseamless and amazing, but like.
Susan (38:14.102)
Yeah, so my website, SusanLieu.me, you can subscribe to my newsletter, Your Susan. I also have a podcast called Model Minority Moms, where we talk about being everything for everyone else better.
Girl. Thank you so much for today's conversation.
Absolutely, it's a pleasure.
I hope that you loved that interview and I hope that if it resonates with you and you are also dealing with intergenerational healing and you want to do the work on a deeper level, which now people have demonstrated that it heals seven generations forward in addition to healing seven generations back, all of the epigenetics work, then if you feel called and inspired and you want to book a call with me to learn more about doing a breakthrough session and one-on-one coaching,
please go to judytsway.com. You can send me a message and we can get on a call and just hear about where you are right now, what it is that you want to achieve in 2025. And I so look forward to getting to know you. I have loved every single one of my clients so much and I am honored by their ability to go deep, to open up and feel safe with me and to truly experience and witness their transformation and healing. is absolutely remarkable.
Judy (39:28.236)
So I'm sending you so much love and aloha before the next episode.
Judy (39:35.192)
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to support me and this show, please go to iTunes and leave your review. It means so much to me and it'll help others find this podcast. I'll catch you in the next episode. And if you'd like to stay in touch between now and then, please visit wildheartedwords.com and sign up for my weekly newsletter. I've had people share with me that it's the best thing to arrive in their inbox all week. Aloha.
LIKE WHAT YOU HEARD?
Help us get more content like this out into the world!
Support our podcast or make a donation here.
Keywords: intergenerational healing, storytelling, mental health, cultural expectations, emotional vulnerability, performance art, personal growth, authenticity, family dynamics
