Episode 145: Curiosity & Creativity as the Foundation for Success with Van Lai-DuMone
In this episode of the F*ck Saving Face podcast, host Judy Tsuei interviews Van Lai-DuMone, the founder of WorkSmart Advantage, who shares her journey from a traditional Asian upbringing to embracing creativity and curiosity in the workplace.
Van discusses her book, 'What If Pigs Can Fly?', and emphasizes the importance of following one's intuition and passions. The conversation explores themes of empowerment, the challenges of balancing motherhood and entrepreneurship, and the significance of fostering creativity in both personal and professional settings.
Sound Bites
"What if pigs can fly?"
"Curiosity is a muscle we need to exercise."
"Life is too short."
"I want my baby to see me do something I love."
"Every voice matters."
"I grew up caring what other people think about me."
Takeaways
Curiosity is a muscle we need to exercise.
Everyone's creative; we just need the right space.
Trusting your intuition is crucial for personal growth.
Breaking free from traditional expectations can lead to innovation.
Balancing motherhood and entrepreneurship requires intentionality.
Creativity in the workplace enhances problem-solving.
Every voice matters in a collaborative environment.
Life is too short to not pursue what you love.
Embracing authenticity can lead to greater fulfillment.
The journey of self-discovery is ongoing and valuable.
Episode Highlights
00:00 Empowering Voices: The Mission of the Podcast
02:01 Van's Journey: From Tradition to Innovation
12:37 Curiosity and Creativity: The Heart of WorkSmart Advantage
18:37 Breaking Free: Embracing Non-Traditional Paths
24:00 Balancing Motherhood and Entrepreneurship
26:25 Unlocking Creativity in the Workplace
28:13 F*ck Saving Face: Embracing Authenticity
Transcript:
Judy (00:02.688)
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast, where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today. Van is the founder of WorkSmart Advantage, where she actively works to rewrite the way we apply curiosity and creativity in the workplace. I've been lucky to meet Van in person and first she was connected to me via
another connect on LinkedIn. But then I went to go see her speak and have continued to stay in touch and found out that we have a lot of mutual connections in the entrepreneurship world. She is all about inspiring brave thinking in clients and has spent over 20 years with corporate and startups creating new learning and development programs for her clients, including Google and LinkedIn.
She served on several nonprofit organizations and studied psychology at UC Santa Barbara, earning her MBA from Pepperdine. She's a TEDx speaker and an author on the topic of curiosity. So her first published book is What If Pigs Can Fly? A Practical Guide to Follow Your Curiosity to Impractical Possibilities. And it's tribute to her mom, who's a Vietnamese refugee, who became one of the first 20 licensed Vietnamese manicurists in the United States. I actually
had learned about that, then heard a podcast episode where it was basically talking about the exact story that she will share with you here that her mother experienced. And her mom and these other Vietnamese refugees basically trailblazed what's now an $8.3 billion industry. And it was all starting with curiosity. So I hope that you will get a lot out of this conversation, especially since maybe like me, you weren't taught to ask questions growing up.
So without further ado, here is the interview.
Judy (02:01.176)
Hello everyone. So I'm so excited to have Van here. She is the founder of WorkSmart Advantage. And if you can see in the background, the author of What If Pigs Can Fly. Van and I met through a mutual connection on LinkedIn. Then I went to go see Van speak in San Diego. And I've just loved watching your journey. And then also at that event, hearing more about your past in terms of your mom and.
her career, which was so timely because I just listened to a podcast episode about that. But before I dive in more there, I wanted to just turn it over to you and share in your own words what it is that you do and how you became the speaker and just pursuing an unconventional path by traditional Asian standards.
Yes, thank you, G. I think Moncy, our mutual friend, connected us because of that commonality, right? Having grown up in a very traditional Asian household and really having to really break free of those expectations. And you've done the same thing. And thank you so much for, like, we just met and you showed up to this event I was doing in San Diego. So thank you so much for that. Thank you for that support.
It was a great event. The caliber of women who were there, the amount of women who were there and how much intentionality was put into it. I just love seeing that. And I was just telling you before we hopped onto this conversation that I was just at the San Diego Magazine celebrating women's event last night. And I'm so grateful that I won an award, but even more so that I got to hear all of these incredible women's stories and the businesses that they're building and just their accomplishments. And I think that women especially,
When we put our minds and our hearts into something that we do, it's so remarkable. Like it's almost like a palpable feeling of just that difference that we can make.
Van (03:49.098)
Absolutely. I know I still have an interest in myself, but this idea, I run some women's workshops and there is something about having all women in the room, it's a different energy. Yeah. Okay. We'll get into all that. My work is called WorkSmart, my company is called WorkSmart Advantage, as you mentioned. My work is bringing creative integration, creative problem-solving to learning and development. I do team development, leadership development, all through a process called creative integration.
which means all our work is in through creativity, play, and sharing experiences. And that means Lego series play, that means hands-on artifacts. I think it has a couple things here, like building rocks. Like what we might do is talk about what are your values? How do you connect those to your company values and align that through conversation, through different activities. And at the end, my form of creativity is hands-on arts and crafts. So I try to bring in.
What I used to call an arts and crafts project, but now I call it a creative artifact so that more companies will grasp onto it. But you're still, like I always say, you're still painting rocks.
That's so great. What I love about that too is that I feel like art is this because it's a subjective and an abstract expression that you can create so much symbolism around what it is and what it means to you and to be able to be much more expressive by like coloring outside the lines and in going outside the rules. Like when I was doing art therapy with my eating disorder therapy, that was my favorite part of it.
because I got to just tap into this other side of me that I didn't really have room in the rest of my life to allow come forward. There was always so much like perfectionism and performance out of creativity or being just for the sake of being. So that the fact that you're bringing that into the workplace is amazing. But I'm going to keep letting you share your book and a little bit more about.
Van (05:44.494)
Sure, yeah, and to what you were saying about creativity, you know, there's, always talk about the fact that there are so many studies that say that children learn so much and have so much value in their growth through creativity and play. And there's studies, studies that share that. And there's not one study out there that says like, oh, and by the way, when you turn 18, that stops, right? It doesn't stop. We still learn and grow through creativity, but we as adults just stop doing it. We stop spending our time in.
creative activities and playful activities. So to be able to bring that into the workplace and tie it into how we do our work, I think is really important. And it really allows people to learn and grow in ways that are so natural to all of us. Okay, so back on track. So my book is called, What if Pigs Can Fly? A Practical Guide to Follow Your Curiosities to Achieve Impractical Possibilities. Long title, kind of on purpose. I purposely did not ask anyone.
Do you like this title? Do you like this tagline? I just did what I wanted to do because it felt right to me. And in doing so, it sort of tells the story of the book, which is basically when you have an idea tapping you on the shoulder, the framework I teach in is pause and pay attention to that curiosity. And then ask powerful questions like what if and how might I. Because if you're like any other human being, generally when you try to do things or when you think of something outside the norm you're already doing, like if I have an idea that taps me on the shoulder,
Naturally, what I'm going to say first to myself, I was like, oh, well, I can't do that because, right? So this book really teaches us to not say that to ourselves, but to ask these expansive questions like, what if I, how might I, and just come up with all these ideas, even though they're wild and crazy, it's okay. Allow yourself to come up with wild and crazy ideas. And the last step is to look at those ideas and say, okay, so maybe I can't, I don't know, move to Europe and live on a farm right now.
But what can I do? What small step can I do to chase that curiosity?
Judy (07:40.566)
Hmm. I love that you're saying that because I think, you know, my dream and my spiritual home is Hawaii. It's where my daughter was born. And right now is not the right time for us to live there. But I think often like, but there are things that I could do. Like I can play Hawaiian music at home and I can do all of these other things that just like bring that ethos and that vibe a bit more. also love that you did not check in with other people about the title.
this book that my Kickstarter is about and the book that I want to bring to life is the book that is the most meaningful to me. And I did hire a book coach. I did try to work with like an agent and like, you know, try to pitch it to publishing houses and it just what they wanted was not the thing that I wanted to do. And as a marketer, I'm like, well, you know, in my profession, I'm very well versed in why it's important to meet your audience where they are or how to take, you know,
what you know that they need and then to make it palatable so that you can bring them into the fold and into that journey. But like similar to you, was like, but this isn't that, this is my thing that I wanna do. And I'm gonna trust that instinct because it, and I think it's such a bold move. It's aligned to what you're saying is follow that curiosity. So how did you trust that curiosity to be able to do it? Especially like,
I'm thinking about other people who might be listening to this and thinking, I have this naysayer in my life or this reality check. Then what?
young. Well, I think it's a muscle, right? So I think we're our biggest naysayers. So from like, it was a big step for me to be like, you know what, like, I am going to trust my intuition, I'm just gonna do whatever I want. Because as you know, we weren't raised like that. I was not raised to do whatever I want and to trust my intuition. So it really was a step for me to just realize like, you know, like my my voice, I teach that everyone's voices matter. And my voice matters too.
Van (09:42.866)
And this wasn't sure that I feel like the more passionate about something, the more willing you are to take that risk. And just like you, I know you're so passionate about your book. see your videos. I see how much effort and love you're putting into this. And I feel it's the same thing, right? It's like, it's, love this idea so much. You love your ideas so much that I can't not do anything, but trust my intuition on this. Now there are other things in my business where I will listen to the experts.
Right, okay, marketing strategy, I have no idea, so I will listen to a marketing strategist about that. But this, feel like, is, you know, although it is part of my business, it is a passion project for me, and I know that is similar for you.
And I think that that's good. It's good to have passion projects that are not correlated to any sort of outcome necessarily where and I think we grew up in Asian households like there was an outcome that you were supposed to get. And there was like an end result that your parents wanted to see. And usually it was in the form of like, you know, top grades and like things like that or like getting the career and and all of those things.
Because I think it's also tricky if your profession is based on the thing that's also your passion. like writing, I realized from a young age that was something that I wanted to do. I was thankfully able to make a career out of it. But the career style of writing is not the style of writing that's necessarily like at my core and at my heart. But then when you're doing it professionally, it can get very tiring and then you don't have the energy to do this. Which is why I think if you do find anything that lights you up and that passion,
then follow that, because it gives you so much energy that you can take into other areas of your life.
Van (11:22.382)
Yeah. And now that I'm talking to you about this, really think the book I just put out there, I'm not doing much. I've created like a quarterly online bootcamp that people can show up because there are a lot of exercises in the book. So a quarterly workshops, people can show up and we'll do the exercise in the book. I send a creativity kit so people have their Legos or markers and all the supplies with them for that. I do as a keynote. So those offers are out there. But in the book, I talk about like, what's the small step you're going to take?
and think of that one small step. So for me, the small step was the number one, the book. And then I just kind of put those offers out there. And contrary to my nature, which is like, okay, so what's next? How do I how do I push this thing? How do I make it like this next big thing? I'm like, I'm just gonna let it sit and see what doors open up for me from there.
That's awesome. So, you know, kind of going back to what your innate nature is, and I think that the environments that we grew up in, you know, that was nurture, let's say like it was potentially not how we were actually born and bred, like at our core. So can you tell me more about your upbringing and specifically like the historical element that your mom has played?
Absolutely. Yeah, so I'm a Vietnamese refugee. was two years old when we came to this country. April 29th, 1975 is the day Saigon fell to the Communist Party and we fled. My dad was a colonel in the South Vietnamese Air Force and we were fortunate to be one of the families that got out intact. And our first home was at Camp Pound's Marine Base in San Diego.
And after a couple of months there, we were transferred to a refugee integration center up in Northern California called Hope Village. And it's there that now civilian volunteers helped us in this transition process. And there's a volunteer there named Tippi Hedren. She's a famous movie star, was a famous movie star, most famously known for her starring role in Alfred Hitchcock's movie, The Birds. And as you heard me say at that talk, just so everyone knows something about her, Melanie Griffith's mom, Dakota Johnson's grandma. But back then, just movie star Tippi Hedren.
Van (13:28.632)
So her role at the camp was to teach the women at the camp how to just share with them some ideas for a new career in their new country. So Tippie started a typing and sewing class and my mom signed up along with 19 other women. And as they were there typing and sewing, Tippie was really hands on and she would walk around the room encouraging them. And as she did so, they were curious about something completely different than typing and sewing. They noticed her long red manicured nails and they were curious.
And imagine being this famous movie star. She could have dismissed that curiosity and just said, thank you for noticing, continue to type in so. But, and this is, I realized like this is where I got the framework for my book is, they, but instead of dismissing it, she paused and she was like, okay, that's interesting. Well, what if, what if we can get them trained in license manicures? How might we do that? And because they started thinking like that, her first small step she came up with was she asked her local manicures from LA.
to come up to Sacramento every weekend and teach these women how to do a basic manicure. And she did. Dusty Kuzmiterra came up, taught my mom and her friends how to do a basic manicure, which opened up the next small step. was like, okay, well, this is like, they love this, they're good at it. So let's now do our next small step. Let's walk down to local beauty school and see if they'll take you on as students. And Citrus Heights Beauty College up in Sacramento found a way to take my mom and her friends in as students, even though they didn't speak English. And they certainly didn't have money to pay tuition.
But they said yes, and my mom and her friends went through beauty school. I think it was 10 weeks, 400 hours of schooling, and they all passed their manicure practicum and written test in English and became the first 20 licensed Vietnamese manicures in the United States. And then clearly they aren't the only 20 because almost 50 years later, I think every single person watching this either knows someone who's had a manicure by Vietnamese manicures or certainly has had one. And it's because the
Refugees and immigrants who came after my mom and her friends, you know learn about the career from them and ask their own what if questions like What if we're able to own our beauty own these lines? What if we start own beauty schools? How might we manufacture the materials we need for this career and it's now an eight point three billion dollar industry
Judy (15:43.074)
That's amazing. I had been listening to this podcast, the Cabinet of Curiosities, and they had this exact episode talking about Tippi. like, you know, at the time, manicure was very expensive. It was not something that everybody had or everybody could access. And so even more so why it was so notable and how wonderful that, you know, she encouraged that curiosity with the people that she was working with, because I think that
us as parents and you know, now with this era of conscious parenting, there's much more understanding around that. But then I think when you and I grew up, that wasn't necessarily I mean, I was not encouraged to like be curious. It was like, Nope, you just follow the rules. And you do what I say. That's that's what I need to do.
Absolutely. Yes, although it's interesting. So are you first generation?
Yeah, so I was born here, but my parents emigrated.
Okay, so you I mean, you know, when I look back at my at my childhood, similar right is like, you know, this is like, there's no falling curiosity, just go to school. Right? There's no even playing sports, just go to school and take math tutoring, and science tutoring and just do more school. So those were the words my parents spoke, right? They were very much about education, you know, go to school, go to college, get a career, enjoy your life when you retire. So those are things they told me and like work hard all that stuff.
Van (17:08.225)
But what I saw was them following curiosity, right? Because they had to out of necessity as immigrants, having to find their way here, having to understand everything, they had to show curiosity every single day. And that's what I picked up on. I heard their words, but what I saw was them being curious. And so, know, inadvertently, they taught me how to be curious.
That's amazing. And when did you make that decision to pursue it as a full time, you know, this is what you're going to do with your life. Because I think also making that that leaping off point for anyone, however you were raised to do something that is non traditional, or I mean, now it's more traditional, let's say like either much many more entrepreneurs out there. And to your point about your parents, I think that the more
that I'm on this planet and the more that I have lived experience, I can see that, again, my parents were doing the best that they could with what they had. And so there's like the shadow and the light to everything that they did and how they approached it. And while certain effects may have been detrimental, there's also, there were so much opportunity to learn from it. And I just thought about this the other day that I wouldn't be who I am if all of those events hadn't transpired the way that they did.
And so I'm curious for you, like how you made that decision and shifted and pursued the path that you're on now.
it took a long time, right? Because I'm going to think about and what you said just just sparked something for me too, because I followed the path they they laid for me for a long time, right? I went to school, I got straight A's, I went to college not knowing what I want to study. I started with biology and pre-med and realized like I can't pass O chem. So went to psychology, right? And then, you know, I came back home, I got a job and I went to business school, got my MBA and
Van (19:04.492)
Then I, I it was just rote. It was just like, this one says to do something, I'm to do it. And then I just kind of went through a bunch of different jobs, corporate startups, entrepreneurial, all, and every single, when I look back, every single thing I did was like, who is this going to impress? Right? There was not one choice. I was like, what do I want to do? What do I love? It was like with this choice, who am I going to impress? And it wasn't until
I think I was well into my 30s. I think it was 39 when I was married at 38, had my son at 39. I was working for a large corporation and I had this idea of bringing creativity, because when you say nature versus nurture, I was always creative when I was younger. So for six years, I had this idea, how do I bring creativity into the corporate world? I was working for a large pharmaceutical company and the idea just sat there in the back of my head going nowhere.
And what really sparked me to make that jump was I had my son, right? He was eight weeks old and my brother was in a motorcycle accident. He's a police, he was a police officer, was in a head on collision with a tree. He is fine. Let me just start with that. He's fine, but he was in a coma for two months. So in that time, you know, a new mom with this tiny little baby seeing my brother's life, you know, we had no idea what was going to happen to him. And I just realized like, you know, this is like life is too short. I want my baby.
my son to see me do something I love. And that, you know, I, so I think I came back from maternity leave just for a few months, but then I said, I'm just going to start my business. And that's how I made that shift. And honestly, when I started, I finally felt like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And with that excitement was also resentment. was like, I resent, I spent all this time, you know, trying to prove myself to my parents, this, whatever it was. And that resentment kind of went away as I realized,
Every step I took was where I needed to be to get me to where I am.
Judy (21:02.478)
I don't know if anyone's articulated it the way that you have just now about like, as you pursue the thing that you want to do, there's resentment that can possibly come up. And I think, you know, the closest experience that I can draw from is after I had my daughter, I thought I would feel closer to my mom and have more empathy and understanding for why she did the things that she did and how she was, but it actually created more resentment because I was like, how could you have done those things? Because I would not have done those things. But, you know, again,
everybody's model of the world is different and her lived experiences were even more traumatic than mine and did not, she didn't have the resources that we now have where we advocate for mental and emotional health. And so I have a lot of compassion and respect for other people's model of the world. doesn't mean that I agree with it, but it means that, you I respect it. And so I think that's such a beautiful reminder that just because you're doing the thing that you want, it doesn't mean that it's all like,
shiny roses and unicorns and butterflies. Like there's a lot, again, light and shadow that comes with it. There's different types of responsibility you're gonna have or just a different mindset that you need to have because I think most of the world is still on that rote path because it feels safe. Like just knowing what you're supposed to do the next day feels good. Like even if it doesn't, isn't what you want, it feels good to know what you're supposed to be doing.
Yeah, I don't remember that time.
entrepreneur for so long, do feel like, oh, like, you know, what does that feel like? Just have a steady paycheck to know what's gonna happen tomorrow to have to be able to come home and not do you know, not to worry about. mean, a lot of people who who do have full time jobs still do come home with a lot of work and worry. And as an entrepreneur, that's just like the way of life.
Judy (22:55.63)
balance it out with your son. How do you balance out motherhood and business and encouraging him to have curiosity and all of those things?
It's so day to day over here because it is like I'm so invested in my business. I'm so invested in him and he is the priority. He will always be my priority. And that too, right? It's like that too. Like, okay, I've running this business for 10 years. The people I work with rave about my work and why is it still me and a few other facilitators that I bring in? Like, why hasn't this grown? And really what I sit with is like, yes, because I've also been a mom.
Right. And that has been my priority. So I haven't been able to, I should say I have been able to, if I wanted to, I could hire someone to take care of him all day long, all night long, weekend long. So I can do my work and really, really make this business flourish. But so I do have to say like, I haven't wanted to do that because I wanted to be present in his life. And you know, and then we just threw on the whole, like we just started homeschooling him too. So there's that as well. But it's interesting because my work is in this idea of every voice matters.
How do you create an environment? How do you use tools in your workplace so you can get all ideas on the table and allow people to, everyone to share their voice, everyone to share their ideas. And with my work the last couple of years, I've been traveling a lot, like tons, like maybe five, six, seven days out of the month. And Nico, my son, came up to me about six months ago. said, mama, you know, I was a baby, you were here all the time and I loved it.
And then I got older and your business started growing and I was happy because you were a bit, you were busy and successful. And he's like, but now you've you're gone too much. And for him to say that, you know, as a business woman, I can be like, well, you know, this is how we pay the bills and this is what I have to do. But rather than that, I use the tools I use in my work. And I was like, okay, well, how can I take his perspective and apply it to, my work? And in listening to his perspective, I was like,
Van (24:55.628)
You know what? I can do more marketing locally. I live in Los Angeles. There's no reason I need to travel all over. There's plenty of business here that I can be getting. I can do that. I can create some online courses. So being able listen to his perspective opened me up to more ideas from my business that will accommodate both.
What a beautiful example. I love that. was just on a call with Goldman Sachs and there was a gentleman on the call and he says, you know, I have three businesses and I have three kids. And so ultimately I feel like I have six businesses because each kid requires like, you know, a different sort of attention. And I appreciate that you listen to him and then use that as an opportunity as opposed to, know, there's something that we do in neuro-linguistic programming in our coaching when I work with clients is
There's two sides of the equation. There's cause and there's effect. And cause is when you have your responsibility and effect is where the reasons lie. And so we always want to move everybody to cause because you may not be able to control the external circumstances, but you can control the response or what you make of the situation as opposed to being on the effect side, which is just, you know, like the reasons for why things aren't working or things like that. And so that was such a beautiful example of that. In your work.
in the corporate space or in the workshops that you give, what's the one key thing that you've seen repeatedly over and over again? Has there been something that you've been like, that's super interesting?
I think, mean, when you say that the first thing that comes to mind is like that everyone's creative. Like I tell people everyone's creative. And when you actually allow people the space, whether they think they're creative or not, right? When you allow people the space to be creative, it just flows out of people so easily. And I don't mean artistic creativity. I mean this idea of when you give people a challenge or a prompt or a problem to solve, and then you give them a creative tool to do it through.
Van (26:55.694)
People come up with the most amazing ideas because my work is around this. fact that we are all innately creative. So when we teach and learn through creativity, we're tapping into capacity that every single person in the room has access to. I guess I would say like the, I see most is even the biggest skeptics get something out of this work because how can you not? Cause we're all innately creative.
I love that. Yeah. I think that that's, you actually reminded me of something that I was thinking about earlier. When I lived in San Diego, the last time I used to run in Del Mar on the beach, there's like a lot of flat sand. And I remember running one day and seeing this dolphin just leap out of the water and do this like flip in the water and then just land. And I was just thinking,
creatures in nature know how to play. There was no necessity for the dolphin to do a circular flip or whatnot. And it just looked like it was joy and it was fun. And so I paused and I stopped and I'm like, my gosh, play is so important in all of us because we're all creatures in nature.
Yes, and it is our nature.
That's awesome. So every time I close an interview, I ask if you could say fuck saving face about something, what would you say fuck saving face about?
Van (28:13.838)
I mean, it's just like, for me, it would be like what other people think about you, right? I mean, I grew up, like I already mentioned, like I always care what other people think about me. We all show to an extent, so we're not out there being, you know, a-holes. But for example, like there's so many times where I've given up my voice for someone else's voice, because I didn't want to look bad. So absolutely, like that intuition, learn to follow that intuition.
I love that. And if people want to follow up with you and learn more about you, where can they do that?
You can go to my website, worksmartadvantage.com, and I always say my second home is LinkedIn. I'm on there every day, all day long. I was speaking to this gentleman right before this podcast. I met him on LinkedIn, and were talking. just had such a great connection. We're getting introduced to friends and colleagues to each other. And in talking, I'm like, you know what? I some of my closest friends now and greatest colleagues through LinkedIn.
Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize how amazingly supportive the community is too. It's just been really wonderful to experience that. yeah, thank you so much for your time today.
Thanks Judy.
Judy (29:27.47)
Thank you so much for tuning in. If you also are ready to spark something new in 2025 and it speaks to your heart and you're ready to release baggage, show up as the person who you're meant to be, you have a greater calling, you know that, and it's not coming from an egotistical perspective, I am here to help you. So send me a message, hello at judytoi.com, go to my website judytoi.com, learn about the different things that are on there, including a new store.
And then reach out to me if that speaks to you and we will help you change your life. And this is a do with process. So you're be doing it with me when I say we. And so far, pretty much every person who's gone through these breakthrough sessions, I'm gonna say every person actually, it's 100%. They are unbelievably grateful for the ripple effect of positivity and transformation and shifts that it's created in their lives. And if you're curious to know more,
we can hop on a complimentary call to chat about it. I will see you in the next episode.
Judy (30:29.55)
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to support me and this show, please go to iTunes and leave your review. It means so much to me and it'll help others find this podcast. I'll catch you in the next episode. And if you'd like to stay in touch between now and then, please visit wildheartedwords.com and sign up for my weekly newsletter. I've had people share with me that it's the best thing to arrive in their inbox all week. Aloha.
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Keywords: mental health, Asian Americans, creativity, curiosity, entrepreneurship, women empowerment, personal growth, emotional health, non-traditional paths, workplace innovation
